Nutty Putty Cave in the News

[ryan162]

damn thats awful! but at the same time it points to poor judgment by this guy. the more i read about it, the whole cave seems to be lots of "i think i can make it" terrain that would lead to several victory's until you finally meet your match. it gives me the creeps just thinking about staring into a worm hole and rationalizing my body width to the walls of the tube.

[Jeff]

My condolences to John and his family what a tragedy. As far as extracting his body goes I don't know the situation however I do know if one wants something bad enough they make it happen, I find it hard to believe there isn't a way to get him out! I have never been to NPC but I think it is wrong to permanently close it, after the will to extract the body had prevailed that area of the Cave could have been sealed off not the whole cave! Does this mean the next person that parishes in a sky diving accident they will ground all the planes? or the next death in a rock climbing accident they will blast all of the rock faces down? There is no doubt from what people that were close to John Jones have said that he was an exceptional person with that being said I don't believe John would want it closed either but that is just my opinion i know I wouldn't! I would like to tell my friends that if I make a poor judgment call please try to do what you can before you call S&R,I know as soon as money and politics become a factor I'm really in trouble!
My hat is off to the volunteers and the underground community that were at the scene. My beef lies with people making decisions that probably shouldn't be to save us all!

May John Jones R.I.P

[RockRacer]

Newest KSL article

"We feel like it would be John's will to protect the safety of future cavers. We feel like not only is this the final resting place and it should be respected, it's also to protect future cavers," said Josh Jones.

If he was a "caver" I highly doubt that would be his "will"!

I almost wonder if there could somehow be some political involvement in saying "we can't get the body out". Obviously if the body remains, it's a sure sign it would get sealed.

[John]

I wholeheartedly agree with you Jeff. I'm sure many others do too.

[ryan162]

Newest KSL article

"We feel like it would be John's will to protect the safety of future cavers. We feel like not only is this the final resting place and it should be respected, it's also to protect future cavers," said Josh Jones.

If he was a "caver" I highly doubt that would be his "will"!

I almost wonder if there could somehow be some political involvement in saying "we can't get the body out". Obviously if the body remains, it's a sure sign it would get sealed.

you might be right about that. as awful as it sounds they could get him out in pieces or with lots of broken bones, but with him still there, everyone including his family has an easy sell on the closure. hell, im not convinced that it isnt the right thing to do anyways, but thats probably just because the idea of wiggling through tubes creeps me out personally lol

if this were a mine where some guy went where we all knew not to go, and got himself killed, i wouldn't be able to condone closing it. of course in the case of an old mine they'd blast it regardless.

[Joanne]

With respect to all involved, I'm tired of the mindset that says when someone gets hurt we must immediately eliminate any potential risk rather than allowing people to take personal responsibility for their own actions. Life is not fair. Bad things happen to good people. It's unfortunate but true. This is a tragic event, but it is made no less tragic by closing the cave.

I do not believe that our society benefits from the idea that life is fair, or that certain behaviors and actions don't have consequences. Personal Responsibility!!

Joanne

[UnderUtah]

I was hoping that Robert would chime-in on this, and perhaps he will, but I wanted to share what I know, have heard, and what I feel. I will avoid using rescuer's names; Rob can make that call if he thinks it's ok.

Though he wasn't in the Wasatch Grotto or any other Grotto here in Utah from what we have been told he was an avid "Caver." "Cavers" and "Spelunkers" are different classifications of explorers. Cavers tend to visit and study caves and karst enviornments and enjoy natural underground wonders with an eye towards conservation and treading lightly. Cavers are also usually a part of an organized group - a Grotto - that has meetings, training trips, presentations by fellow cavers and researchers, and they usually belong to the N.S.S. (National Spelological Society) an organization that promotes safe, conservative caving across the U.S. Cavers are taught and learn to be prepared for many scenarios.

Spelunkers are often not as well prepared, trained, experienced, or as conservative. Though I cannot label Mr. Jones, it sounds like he had a fair amount of experience underground and was not some drunken idiot with a flashlight and a little fortitude. From all of the rescue personnel that Rob spoke to and all the inter-Grotto emails that were flying around all weekend this picture has developed:

Mr. Jones was in a very tight and difficult to reach spot. The area is one where a caver is to enter, turn around, and exit, but apparently he entered head first and slid down into a very tight crack. It was poor circumstances indeed. The spot was incredibly small and tight; one of our fellow cavers, a highly experienced 5'1" 140lb guy had trouble getting in there. (He is the one pictured in the news stills with the red caving helmet crawling into the area) Another wirey caver was able to back down beside him and offer him his camelback - but only by manipulating the end down to him with his feet - he could get no closer.. This is an extremely small crack.

Other testimony stated that due to his slipping and becoming wedged in the formation like a fish hook there was just no way to get him out. The mechanics of it only allowed him to go down in, not back out in his current anatomical configuration. This is so hard to visualize; that you can get in but you can't get out, but that was apparently the situation. At one point they were able to wrap ankle loops around his feet and had him pulled up a few feet, but the force they were exerting with the pulley system was so great that it pulled the anchor out of the roof and split the tongue and lip of one of the rescuers, sending him to the hospital. His father, a fellow caver and rescuer left the scene after the rigging failure.

It is so sad that someone has lost their life in such a claustraphobic and frightening way. My heart goes out to the family and all of those involved in the rescue. How terrible to have this happen during the Thanksgiving holiday. We DO willfully participate in a dangerous sport - sooner or later there will be an incident. I think that the lesson to learn is that you must go prepared - know the likely dangers and that you may not return. Let's not begin comparing statistics, but there are other ways to die in this world.

The cave will be closed in it's entirety, though the details are not out. It is a sad loss for his friends and family and the community, but it is also the loss of the most visited wild cave in the state. Where will people go for this kind of adventure in the future? Somewhere else even more difficult? The reality is that the majority of Utah's caves are vertical - if people venture further and further unprepared for the dangers of vertical caving will we run the risk of more fatalities and forced closures? I hope not.

[MACaver]

The cave will be closed in it's entirety, though the details are not out. It is a sad loss for his friends and family and the community, but it is also the loss of the most visited wild cave in the state. Where will people go for this kind of adventure in the future? Somewhere else even more difficult? The reality is that the majority of Utah's caves are vertical - if people venture further and further unprepared for the dangers of vertical caving will we run the risk of more fatalities and forced closures? I hope not.

I hope not either but the possibility is high. There are other open access caves in the state as you mentioned. My fear is that yet another one will calim a victim (alive or dead) and that cave will be closed, then another and another and pretty soon just as with the mines in Utah ... all caves will be on a closure list.
This is one of the reasons why a lot of cavers fought against the idea of making locations public because of the possibility that some idiot (not John J. ) will get themselves hurt/stuck or killed because they went in over their head and didn't have (our) training/experience. They walk among us... the stupids of this world and we read about them all the time.

In John's case he made a serious error in judgment in attempting a crawl that was too small for him to pass safely through. He had never visited Nutty Putty and was from the St. George area originally. I would imagine that he was of the mind-set of seeing every possible part of the cave before having to return home. The lure of the unknown is a great one among us here in the mine exploring community and caving community. Yet we all know that there is a danger yet we take the risks and as Joanne stated "life is not fair and bad things happen to good people". Yet in this era where lawsuits make lawyers richer and landowners poorer the reasons for closing the cave is (in their minds) a sound one.
Yet I believe it is possible that Nutty Putty could still be saved provided knee-jerk reactions don't take over.
MANY of the rescuers who worked those long 27 hours are devastated by the death, and are presently in their grief of the mindset to close the cave as well. Many of those same rescuers were among the groups that fought hard to keep the cave open. They erroneously feel responsible somehow for this happening. They should be consoled that they hold no responsibility for John's death in no way shape or form. They worked as hard as they could to save him but sometimes... "life isn't fair".

Various groups that have an interest in keeping the cave open in spite of the tragedy should write as soon as possible to the powers that be valid reasons for keeping the cave open and perhaps only a portion of the cave sealed to protect John's body if removal isn't possible. Yet it is up to the family I think to make that decision to leave the body there or try to have it removed to be interred properly. If it were me that had died in (ANY) cave and removal of my body isn't possible then I would at least like to have something to prevent my body from being molested, moved or whatever and the rest of the cave kept open. But that's just me. My family already knows how I feel about the subject so they at least wouldn't have a problem with it. The land owner might however...

Either way this is a tragedy that affects ALL of us and the closure of the cave will affect ALL of us as well. We should find appropriate ways to express our feelings on the matter to the proper persons in charge of the decision making.

[Troy]

Mr. Jones was in a very tight and difficult to reach spot. The area is one where a caver is to enter, turn around, and exit, but apparently he entered head first and slid down into a very tight crack. It was poor circumstances indeed. The spot was incredibly small and tight; one of our fellow cavers, a highly experienced 5'1" 140lb guy had trouble getting in there. (He is the one pictured in the news stills with the red caving helmet crawling into the area) Another wirey caver was able to back down beside him and offer him his camelback - but only by manipulating the end down to him with his feet - he could get no closer.. This is an extremely small crack.

Other testimony stated that due to his slipping and becoming wedged in the formation like a fish hook there was just no way to get him out. The mechanics of it only allowed him to go down in, not back out in his current anatomical configuration. This is so hard to visualize; that you can get in but you can't get out, but that was apparently the situation. .

Here are some more quotes about the situation Mr. Jones was in. I was very interested in this aspect because I too have been in this cave many times. I am still under the impression that Mr. Jones went into a tunnel that was not mapped nor named, and there are plenty of those in Nutty Putty. I don't know if the accident was due to his curiosity until he was finally in a rock vice that he couldn't get out of. Regardless of why this happened, I agree that this is a tragedy all around.

Salt Lake Tribune: "John Valentine, a state senator and longtime search-and-rescue participant, said the crevice is simply too small, and the passage too winding, for anyone to crawl inside and pull him out without being at risk themselves.

"He is in an area that is really beyond the scope of what anyone can get into," he said. It's "where the cave peters down to nothing."

Deseret News: "Barker and Mike Leavitt (cave manager) describe it as a beginner's cave, though there are many dangerous areas inside, like the one where Jones became stuck. Leavitt said that area wasn't even on maps provided to caving groups because those making the maps would look at the passageway and think it "humanly impossible" to enter."

[Mark1955]

I'm not trying to be funny here but they should have seeked out the help of a midget to aid in the rescue. A small person could have likely made his way in and been of more help in the rescue than a normal size person. SAR as good as they may be sometimes is not the cure all for every problem at hand!!! Also, What would be wrong with just sealing off the tunnel he is stuck in? It would be a proper grave site for all to visit.

Mark

[RockRacer]

I'm not trying to be funny here but they should have seeked out the help of a midget to aid in the rescue. A small person could have likely made his way in and been of more help in the rescue than a normal size person. SAR as good as they may be sometimes is not the cure all for every problem at hand!!! Also, What would be wrong with just sealing off the tunnel he is stuck in? It would be a proper grave site for all to visit.

Mark

Agreed and agreed. In fact sealing off the section could keep us all humble as we pass by. Anyone know what is being done to keep the cave open? Even though everyone I know has been in there, even people I would never have expected, I have wanted to go in there for many years.

[grimerslimer]

Does anyone have contact information for the people making the decision to shut this down? If they get enough people contacting them then hopefully they will reconsider.

I haven't been in this cave for 10+ years, and even when I was 120lbs soaking wet that area scared the hell out of me. Mr. Jones, with all due respect, made a terrible decision. Making another one in closing the cave down doesn't seem like an honor to him.

That and I'm really tired of the powers that be telling everyone that something is too dangerous for our own good when 5k people/year and this being the first death means that Mr. Jones was more likely to die on the drive to the cave than in it.

[RockRacer]

(From another site)

OK

So I am VERY opposed to the closure of Nutty Putty despite the recent death.
I have a number for Sitla, 801-538-5100.

Give them a call and let them know if you're opposed to the closure.

Don't know how much difference it will make, but I just called and the secretary lady told me up front that it will be "permanently closed", I continued my rant anyway and she put me in touch with the lawyer guy's voice mail, so I said the same thing to him.

[RockRacer]

I have searched and haven't found an actual petition yet, but I did find this:

Tyler E. wrote ........
- I have set up an email address to collect pettitions to save Nutty Putty Cave

[email protected]

Please add your name to our list of people if you don't want this cave closed.

Important: Please write (Save Nutty Putty) in your subject line

And feel free to write your comments in the email so we can convince our government to preserve the one of Utah's greatest treasures
And if you really feel stongly about this please forward this to all your friends.

Thanks for your help
Tyler

MY EMAIL:
I have called and left messages with Sitla at 801-538-5100. I feel bad for the family and kid, but one bad decision shouldn't condemn a place that safely sees over 5,000 people per year. If we continue down this path, we will be stuck in our padded homes. Makes no sense! Please don't close Nutty Putty Caves. If a body "must" remain in the dangerous section that he shouldn't have been in, seal in that section only.

[grimerslimer]

Thanks for the number and setting up the email.

I also created a group on Facebook:

Save Nutty Putty Cave on Facebook

I know it's not likely that it will work out, but now is our only chance to stop this tragedy from turning into two.